I frequent a few message boards online, and recently some girl at one of the message boards wrote something to the effect of "I disapprove of being gay but I still like gay people." I took offense at that comment since I considered it contradictory to say that you liked a person even when you disapproved of who they were, and a big long discussion was started. This page contains the entire discussion which was at the message board, so please read for yourself (by the way, because this is a compilation of various posts I made in response to a bunch of different people, it sounds like I'm repeating a lot of the same points over and over again, and for that I apologize - I'm usually not THIS repetitive! *g*).

- -

I have put my words in yellow, while the words of the people I was talking to at the message board are written in green:

If Ame says that she doesn't approve of gay people, then that doesn't necessarily mean that she has something against them. I mean, maybe I don't approve of swearing, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I hate all people who swear.

The point you're missing is that there is a difference between disapproving of swearing and disapproving of homosexuality. Swearing is something you DO, something you can change if you really felt like it. Homosexuality is something you ARE, and you cannot change it. You can only suppress it (i.e. keep it hidden). For anyone to disapprove of something a person is BORN with IS offensive and it IS bigotry, no matter how you or anyone else tries to euphemize it.

I have made the analogy before and I'll make it again:

For anyone to tell me that they "disapprove of homosexuality" even if they think it's okay for other people to be gay is just as ludicrous and offensive as if someone said to me that they disapprove of Korean people like myself but thought it was okay for other people to be Korean.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that issues of race are always analagous to issues of sexuality, but they are in this case, because race and sexuality are both things you do NOT choose - they are NOT an acquired habit, the way swearing is. And frankly, even if being gay WAS an acquired habit (it's not, but let's pretend it is), would that justify your disapproval?

For you (or anyone else) to say that you disapprove of gays is just as offensive as if you said you disapproved of a certain race, and for you to try to use swearing as an analogy to sexuality is ludicrous. And if you can't see that and see how offensive your stand is no matter how good-hearted you think your intentions may be, then that's too bad, for yourself and for people like me.

Just because you don't agree with someone else that doesn't mean that you dislike that person or think there is something wrong with them.

True, but not when it comes to things like sexuality, race, and gender. If you said you didn't "agree" with someone's race you'd immediately be branded a racist by most thinking people, but somehow you're trying to tell me that you're not being offensive by saying that you don't "agree" with my sexuality, even when sexual orientation is no more of a choice than race is. To put it mildly, that's not the best reasoning on your part.

I'm not saying that you ALWAYS need a reason for everything you believe in (though it would be preferable *g*), but if you're going to say that you disapprove of a part of someone that they were BORN with and could not change (whether it be race, sexuality, gender, or skin color) you'd better have a better way to defend your offensiveness and "disapproval" than by trying to make an analogy to something completely unrelated like swearing.

I don't mind if someone else is gay, though I'm sure I'm definitely not.

I don't understand why you have to point that out. Only simple people would believe that a person has to be gay in order to be able to support and accept gay people, so your disclaimer is very unnecessary.

Maybe I don't approve of homosexuality, but it is other people's own business and I am definitely not allowed to judge that.

You're not allowed to judge but you're still allowed to disapprove? Don't you realize that the two go hand in hand most of the time, especially when it comes to an issue like sexuality? Imagine how ludicrous you would sound if you said that you disapproved of someone's ethnic background but you couldn't judge them becasue it was their business. Again, I'm sorry to make another analogy between race and sexuality, but both race and sexuality are things that people ARE; they are not things that are "other people's BUSINESS."

I never said anything about gay people that was offensive, in my opinion! If I say I don't approve of homosexuality then that's just my point of view, just like it is your point of view that religions are just for people who want easy answers! Now, think about that... You started saying that about religion, and I didn't take offense in it, because I respect your point of view!

Uhm, okay, you're saying you never said anything offensive about gay people but then you just said that you don't approve of them. That makes no sense. Also, I never said that religion was for people who want easy answers - I said religion is a tool, which SOME people misuse for the sake of getting easy answers. I never said that you misused religion in that way or that ALL religious people misused religion in that way, so don't twist what I said.

Lastly and most importantly, your comparison is way off-base due to the fact that religion is completely different from sexuality. Sexuality is something you're born with, something one does not choose. Religion is a way of thinking that you accept. Sexuality is NOT a way of thinking or a set of beliefs; rather, it is a part of you like your gender, ethnicity, et cetera. Therefore there is an essential difference between me disagreeing with someone on ways of thinking about religion and YOU *disapproving* of someone because of how they were BORN with regards to sexual orientation.

In other words, I think it's okay to disagree with people when it comes to religion, politics, favorite color, et cetera. I do NOT think it's okay for anyone to "disagree" or disapprove when it comes to things like sexuality, race, gender, et cetera. Get the difference? You can choose a religion, but you cannot choose a sexuality. You can only hide or suppress your sexuality. And you're trying to tell me that your disapproval of sexuality, which is something one cannot choose just like race and gender, is on the same level as my disagreement with organized religion, which is another matter altogether.

I NEVER offended you, I never called you sick or whatever, and I never will, because I do NOT think that you are, just because you are gay.

Then why are you still saying that you "disapprove"? I used the analogy to racism and you still can't see why I would take offense at something so ludicrous. Maybe you didn't intend to offend, but it's still very offensive to say that you disapprove of being gay even if you like gay people, and in many ways it's more dangerous than overt and blatant homophobia because it's more subtle, insidious, and undetectable, which means that it's that much easier to get away with.

I just said that *I* do not approve of homosexuality, but that every person should make that choice for themselves.

You're missing the point again: homosexuality is not a CHOICE. My race and gender are not my choice, but I am very proud of them, and I feel the same way about my sexuality. You're disapproving of me because of something I did not choose and you're expecting me to somehow believe that that isn't offensive.

I got a little carried away when you started calling me a hypocrite and a racist.

Well, it IS hypocritical (not to mention really confusing) to say that you disapprove of gays but you think there's nothing wrong with them or that you have no problem with them.

Also, I NEVER called you a racist. I made an ANALOGY to racism, because if you said that you "disapproved" of a race that would be offensive, but you think it's not offensive to say the same thing about a certain sexuality even though sexuality and race are both things you cannot change. I'm just trying to point out that if someone says they disapprove of a sexuality it's just as offensive and bigoted as saying that they disapprove of a certain race.

Can we please end this discussion now? Or someone, sooner or later, will get really mad and that would be a shame.

Well, if you want to end it, then that's fine, but if you reply to what I say I'll be just as happy to reply back to it. And trust me, if someone gets mad, it won't be me. I've had these discussions so many times that it's really difficult for me to get mad. It just makes me damn sad.