This is basically a rehash of some of the stuff I say in my "Christianity and Religion" rant, but there is some new stuff here as well. According to SimpleNet it's okay for me to use people's first names with or without permission cause if I only use a first name then I can't prove who the person I'm talking about is, nor can anyone else. However, the name "Marie" is a fictitious one, designed to protect the privacy of a girl I mention here.

- -

Background info:

This page came about after I had an incident with Ash, a girl I know. Ash knows my best friend Mel and considers Mel and I to be her best friends. Also, Ash is Christian while Mel and I are not, and up to a little while ago, it hadn't been an issue and we basically just respected each other's beliefs, as friends do.

A little while back, Ash e-mailed Mel with a story that was very obviously directed at helping non-Christians "find God." Naturally Mel was offended by the disrespect to her beliefs and she made it clear to Ash that day that she didn't want to receive any such material from Ash anymore. To her credit, Ash has stopped talking about religious matters with Mel.

Some days passed after that incident, and I talked to Ash over ICQ (a program you can use to chat with people) - after we made small talk for a bit, Ash asked me if I trusted her. I thought it was an odd question, but I said that yes, I did, and then she replied saying that she was praying for me and Mel, that God is real whether Mel or I thought so or not, that God loved me, and that she didn't want me and Mel to go to Hell (hey, that rhymes! :P). It was the *exact* same thing Ash had talked about with Mel the day Mel told her to stop sending what was basically propaganda material.

I was pretty offended, since Ash had told me once in a previous phone conversation that she wasn't going to try to push me or Mel to believe something we didn't believe in; yet even after Mel rejected Ash's attempt at recruitment, she tried to do the same thing to me.

Anyway, I continued talking with Ash over ICQ about religion, and what got to me was the fact that she wouldn't give an answer to any of the questions I posed her regarding Christianity. Finally she went offline and stopped talking to me, and her parting message to me was: "You know James, some answers won't even [sic] be given, because they can't be. I'm sorry. =) We'll talk later, and I do have a message history so your questions won't be lost. Night"

Basically, I really dislike unfinished discussions, especially when it comes to "deep stuff" like religion and/or spirituality, so I e-mailed Ash a message in order to continue our discussion. Below is a copy of the e-mail I sent to her, and that's where this rant REALLY starts. :) Please read it, and please read my footnote after the e-mail.

- -

Hi Ash,

James here, just wanted to respond to your last message:

you wrote:

<<You know James, some answers won't even be given, because they can't be. I'm sorry. =)>>

Even after you write something like that, you expect me to listen to you and believe in your god? Here you are telling me that your god is the right answer, that if I don't believe in him/her/it that I'm gonna go to hell, yet right when you leave you tell me some answers won't ever be given.

My point is that you're trying to tell me that I should commit my SOUL, the most important part of me, to something that YOU believe in even though you've just admitted yourself that "some answers won't ever be given." Like I said over ICQ, I don't want us to debate over whether people have souls or not, but if we do, then HOW do you expect me to place something so important in the hands of something you believe in, even when you admit you don't have all the answers, that some answers won't ever be given? I think that's a pretty defeatist attitude, and not only that, but it's a careless and offensive attitude, if you think you can gamble your soul like that and that people who don't think the way you do are going to end up in eternal torment.

And that's another thing, you tell me that you love me and you love Mel, but that if we don't change our beliefs we're seriously going to Hell. Maybe you love us, but if you think that way, then wouldn't you pity us as well? I sure would. And how in the world can you ever tell us that you respect us? Something we're willfully, voluntarily believing in will send us to eternal punishment and we're sitting here not caring about that, and how can you say that you respect us? You can love us and you can pity us, but you cannot respect us if that's the way you really feel, and frankly, I wouldn't want to have anyone I know, friend or not, to not have respect for me. And if a person can't respect me, I don't want their love or pity, nor would I really need it. To say that you love us when you also say that we're going to hell if we continue to believe what we believe is rather hollow, don't you think? You claim to KNOW that we're going to hell, to a punishment we deservedly get for not believing the things you do. You're claiming something that big, something that offensive, even though you admitted that some answers are never given, yet you expect me and Mel to not to be pissed at an attitude like that? What sort of mentality is it when you can presume to know such things and then still try to tell us that you love us? Love, maybe, but respect? No way.

Frankly, people who say the things you do are harder to deal with than outright bigots, because you're trying to tell us that you're doing this out of love, and everyone thinks that you're such a good person for that, and you act like we're the ones who are "wrong" or "sensitive" or "mad" or whatever for getting upset at your attitude and what you're saying. What you can't realize is that although your intentions may be good, your attitude, your claims, and your beliefs are not only offensive but presumptuous as well, and that makes them even more offensive. Is that really what it means to be a Christian?

One last thing: Anthony, remember him? He's a Christian, he believes in god, and I actually had long discussions about it with him. If I were to believe what you believe in, then hell, Anthony has a better chance of getting into heaven than I have. Never mind the fact that he used Marie and I sexually, that he hurt Marie and I emotionally and even treated you and Mel like shit, never mind all that, he's MUCH more willing to believe in your god than I am, so frankly, according to your rules and beliefs he has a better chance of getting into heaven than I do. Isn't that special?

But that's not the point. If there is a god and he/she/it is really Christian, then god would let Anthony into heaven and forgive him. Heck, even I've forgiven Anthony, for both his sake and for my own closure. Likewise, if there is a god and he/she/it is really Christian, then god should be able to understand why I don't believe in Christianity and would forgive me and let me into heaven as well. Wouldn't you think that that would be the most magnanimous, charitable, and GOD-LIKE action for a god to take?

I'm not saying that just because a true god would be all-forgiving that it's okay for humans to be mean and rude and murder other people. I'm just saying that if there is a god, the most god-like thing for that supreme being to do is to forgive everyone. Even "Satan," even Hitler, even my father, even you and me, et cetera. If there is a god and god is truly a god-like person, then frankly, I have nothing to worry about and neither do you. Stop worrying about my salvation and Mel's salvation and instead try to bring a little bit of your so-called god to this earth, try to bring a little bit of heaven to earth by donating to a charity, by giving a homeless person five bucks, and by recycling. I'm dead serious. That'd be much more of a Christian thing for you to do than to try and tell your "best friends" that what they believe is wrong, and that they're going to Hell for not only what they believe, but for having a mind to be able to have their own belief system which YOUR god apparently doesn't allow you to respect.

<<We'll talk later, and I do have a message history so your questions won't be lost. Night>>

If you do have message history, please do send it to me, my Macintosh version of ICQ is lame and I can't retrieve any of my message history. Thanks.

- James

- -

Well, that's the end of the message I sent to Ash - as of today (21 April 1999) it's been nearly a week and I haven't heard back from Ash in ANY form whatsoever, even though she promised that "we'll talk later" and that she would answer the questions I posed to her in our chat because she had our chat saved.

The reason I made this page is because this is not an isolated incident in my life. A lot of times I've had "friends" and acquaintances try to recruit me into Christianity, and each time that it happened it was THEY who walked away from our discussion being stumped, confused, silent, and unsuccessful. I get tired of being told what to believe by people who get stumped in an informal discussion about spirituality, and I'm tired of people like that telling me that I'm going to a hell for my beliefs even though I was able to decently defend what I believed in, unlike them. I'm also tired of watching the same thing happen to my non-Christian friends.

What I'm trying to say is that if you're a Christian and you have friends who are not, I hope this page makes you realize why sometimes your good intentions in "spreading the Good News" to recruit your friends may not be well-received. Contrary to what you may think, being non-Christian doesn't mean that one doesn't care about spiritual/philosophical issues or that one isn't educated about religion, and a lot of Christians (not all, but a lot) who try to recruit people forget that. If you want to share your spiritual/philosophical ideas and beliefs with your non-Christian friends, that's just fine, that's what friends do. What a friend does not do is tell his/her friends that they'll go into an eternal punishment they deserve for having a disagreement on issues that are in no way clear cut, or show other such forms of disrespect.